Niiiiiiiice…

{click image to be taken to original source}

No commentary from me on this one, at least not today. Just know that I’m smiling as I type this. :D

Seen & Overheard

{a round-up of tidbits I’ve come across on the internet}

I read the following on an Exmo forum the other day:

When I hear a TBM say "People only leave the church because they are offended" I really want to stop them short by saying "wow - that's an awful thing to say about your church. Are people so offensive in your church that they can turn half the members away from God with their behavior? What kind of church do you belong to, anyway, that drives away members in such numbers? What do they teach the members that makes them so offensive to others? You don't hear other churches claiming that they are so offensive they are losing members in droves. That's really a sad situation.

The official church website says:

• Remember that “a soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger” (Proverbs 15:1). It almost never helps to argue or contend with others regarding your beliefs or to become defensive or belligerent. Just share your stories in a kind and gentle way, remembering that not everyone will agree with what you say—and that’s okay. Remember to respect others and their opinions.

• Be friendly and polite, even if you comment anonymously. Act like you would if you were talking to your next door neighbor. How you comment may be just as important as what you say.

A friend on Facebook had this as a status in celebration of the lunar landing anniversary:

“We will never get a man into space. This earth is man’s sphere and it was never intended that he should get away from it…The moon is a superior planet to the earth and it was never intended that man should go there. You can write it down in your books that this will never happen.” May 14, 1961 – Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr

An online friend said this on his blog:

Well duh, we shouldn't allow gay people to marry or adopt or have kids because OBVIOUSLY gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only ever raise straight children.

Feel free to leave your thoughts in the comments.

Tonight we’re giving the podcast-interview-thingy another go. Hopefully everything works out this time.

I’m Not Buying It

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I’m not buying their story. And here’s why:

1. It took them a week to release their version of events (even in the face of outrage and protests over the incident). If it really takes that long to write three short paragraphs to tell the “real story” then you might want to fire everybody in your PR department. The guys you detained managed to tell their story within 24 hours and they don’t even have a PR department.
2. If they had “obviously been using alcohol” (a single beer according to other side) why weren’t they charged with public drunkedness or whatever charge Utah has for drunk, “belligerent, lewd, profane” individuals?
3. This press release makes them look absolutely faultless. The other side isn’t pretending to be perfect. They admit they cussed at the guards after being treated the way they were treated. Nobody is perfect. Stop pretending you didn’t do anything wrong (still waiting for more info on if the guards did, in fact, illegally detain the two men and if so, when will they be charged?).
4. They don’t exactly have a history of telling the truth when the truth is “not useful” for them.

Are there any witnesses? Where are they? At this point I’m inclined to believe the first story from the men detained, rather than this press release from the organization that can’t stand to look bad.

Here’s the thing. If you don’t want to let gay couples hold hands or whatever on your property then COME OUT AND SAY IT. You have a right to be that way (I think it’s mean, and bigoted, and over the top but it IS your property). Don’t play stupid games. Don’t try to tell me NO PDA whatsoever is allowed on the grounds (because that’s a LIE and you know it). And don’t pretend you’re gay friendly. As an organization you are NOT gay friendly and never will be. It doesn’t matter how many of your members as individuals are open minded and tolerant. As an organization you are not friendly to gays. You have leaders who suggest parents refuse to let their gay children bring their partners home for the holidays or introduce them to their friends. You used electric shock therapy on gays at BYU until the 70s (hmmm…the 70’s were big for change, eh?). You’ve treated gay students at BYU like criminals. So yes, you have every right as a religion to teach that homosexuality is all kinds of filthy and immoral. But you can’t have your cake and eat it too. So don’t think you’re fooling anyone into believing you’re gay friendly while teaching that crap.

Aaaaaaand I can’t write a post on this topic without throwing on this link:

http://www.affirmation.org/

That is all.

PS: The interview thingy got postponed. So it will be a while before I have links for ya’ll.

Mormon Expression

The husband and I will be participating in a discussion tonight with Mormon Expression (Mormon Expression is on Twitter). I'll be sure to provide links once the podcast is available.

In the mean time you can read about Mormon Expression in this Examiner article.

And my apologies for the sporadic posts. My main blog takes up almost all my leftover time after taking care of the mini-me. But I'm not abandoning the blog. And I am brainstorming some new posts. So stay tuned!

Dear "S"

Dear “S,”

You recently left a comment on my blog. I try not to assume people are trolls right off the bat so I'm happy to reply to your message. And since you had the good form to at least provide an initial and a screen name I'll try my best to refrain from snark (though I've always been a bit sarcastic and may slip up here and there). To make things clear and easy to read I'll use what I call the “quote and reply” format. I hope that you will be willing to read and consider what I have to say since I'll be putting in so much effort and time to your reply.

If you don't like the Church... Don't go.

I don't go, not anymore. And if we're using that logic I suppose I could say if you don't like my blog don't read it. But I've never been big on that argument (the love it or leave it all or nothing thing just doesn't jive with me). So, you're welcome here as long as you play nice. :)

Do you really have to have a blog? Blogs are.... a podium for "I", "Me", "I","I", "I", "Me", Etc.
Truly selfish... Agreed that it is the same for bloggers that are "believers" in one thing or another, not just "non-believers"...

No, I don't have to have a blog. But I do want to have a blog. I'm a writer at heart. And these days my blogs function as my journal (journal keeping: one of the things I picked up from the church and for which i am, honestly, grateful). See, I have ADHD and my thoughts race very quickly and my handwriting can't keep up. Typing works much better. And since I'm typing it anyway why not go the extra step and click the "publish post" button? I like to share with those who are interested.

Despite your assertion that blogs are merely vain and selfish they do serve a purpose. This blog, aside from being the very cheap form of therapy that it is for me, has been of interest to others who are going through the same process as I am. I've been thanked for writing this blog. And there are blogs out there (on leaving the church and a million other topics) that I am grateful for. For example:

• This blog and this blog have inspired me to take better care of my body.
• This blog makes me laugh which is good for the soul.
• This blog motivates me to get boring housework done and helps me understand that I'm not the only person with an imperfect home.
• This blog gives me ideas for things I want to do with my daughter when she's old enough.
• This blog taught me lots of great stuff about money management.
  

I think you get the idea. Blogs, well...good blogs anyway, are not just about “Me, I, I, I, me.” They are about content and community. They're like free, interactive magazines but, in my opinion, more enjoyable because they have such a personal touch.

Old Joe Smith was correct in at least one of his statements (paraphrasing here) that after uniting with the Church one will not remain "neutral". They just can't walk away. They have to fight...

And do you ever stop to wonder why? I mean really stopped and thought hard about it? I'm not talking about giving a “seminary answer” of being filled with the spirit of contention or led astray by the devil. I'm talking about putting yourself in someone else's shoes and trying to understand how they feel instead of telling them how they feel. Here, let me give you a small insight into what it means to be an exmo

Think about how much you give to the church. Tithing, time, whatever is asked of you. Now, pretend that you found out it was all a fraud. Pretend you didn't get to have your mother (or a single member of your family for that matter) at your wedding. Pretend you went into debt trying to keep up with tithing and fast offerings while living on a student's budget. Pretend you had fought to defend the honor of an institution that lied to you. Pretend you walked away from that organization because integrity demanded it. Now pretend that people you thought were your friends stopped being your friends and gossiped about you. Pretend your family members still in the church insulted and harassed you. Pretend you suddenly realized what a fool you had been and that you had done bad things because the church told you to. Can you honestly say you wouldn't be angry?

Of course we can't remain neutral. We see the damage the so called “Gospel” did to our lives and our loved ones. We want to protect others from the same. And, frankly, we want to commiserate with each other because you can't just drop something so all consuming (daily prayers, scriptures, weekly church and meetings, monthly temple attendance, etc.) and just walk away as if nothing happened. You have to spend quite a lot of time deconstructing church programming and discovering who you really are. No-one should have to do that alone.

And as long as we're quoting church leaders:

"Each of us has to face the matter-either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing."
- Gordon B. Hinckley. "Loyalty," April Conference, 2003.

Frauds deserve opposition, especially frauds that harm. It's really not that much different than warning my friends that this or that brand of product is a cheap piece of crap and they should save their money because it doesn't do what it claims. Well...I'd like to warn people to save their tithing because the “Gospel” doesn't do what it claims nor is there going to be a second coming, nor heaven and eternal salvation so they might as well spend their money and time enjoying their finite existence and helping others do the same.

I read most of your blog... You are mistaken in a few areas, probably because of your age, with regards to recent DNA issues, ore/weapons (ore has been found you can contact me for references) in Ancient America and the actual condition of America when Columbus arrived here (see the book "1491" by the author Mann)... new discoveries actually throw out most of what we've learned in text books all of our lives about the small bands of native Americans when Columbus arrived... new evidence actually verifies that there were huge cities with millions of people...
I would have thought you had done your home work before creating a blog at your young age...

Do you know how condescending that sounds? How about I won't imply that you're a fool because you're an old fogey and you don't imply that I'm a fool because I'm 23. Fair enough?

As for doing homework, what makes you think I haven't? Have you visited any of the references I've listed throughout this blog? How about at least visiting Mormon Think which is run by members of the church. The only scientists who claim there are evidences for the truth of the Book of Mormon are, not surprisingly, Mormon. No reputable museum, or organization that I have found proposes that the Book of Mormon is a true historical record. Find me a book, newspaper article, or other, similar source that is NOT connected to a Mormon and I'll take a look. If all you have for me are biased, apologetic references then, I'm sorry, but I don't have time to waste on those.

I don't expect to see this comment on your blog... as I'm sure that you only post comments supportive to your view...

Now, now...you know what they say about assumptions.* Just because I'm an apostate doesn't mean I'm a jerk. Sheesh. I only delete comments that are truly offensive, which is the same policy as my other blog. But really, that's kind of a negative outlook isn't it? You're sure I won't leave your post up? I mean, I know the church often teaches that we apostates are led by Satan and are so angry and hate-filled that we become caricatures. But, come on. You seem like a fairly decent guy from the limited exposure I've had. Shouldn't you know better than to assume the worst in people? People can be stupid sometimes. But they can be filled with good as well.

Besides, I'm not threatened by comments supporting the church so I have no need to censor them. The truth is the truth no matter how many people declare otherwise and the real evidence supports it. A quick “prayer” before the altar of Google reveals all the light and truth people need. After all...

"If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak."
- George Albert Smith, 1871, Journal of Discourses, Vol 14, pg 216.

If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed." (emphasis mine)
- J. Reuben Clark, D. Michael Quinn, J. Reuben Clark: The Church Years. Provo, Utah: Brigham Young University Press, 1983, p. 24.

And frankly, I abhor censorship. The thought of book burnings make me cringe. I may delete meanness. But I won't delete an idea just because I disagree with it.

Holly, I'm not gonna say "I'll pray for you" etc... I will say that I have gone down your road of study. EVERY CONVERTED member of the Church has had their questions. I have. It took some real study, some real work, some miracles (of which I can't speak because of their personal nature) I wish you well in your positive efforts. I do not wish you well in your negative pursuits...

I do not consider my blog a negative effort. Though, having been in your place not too long ago, I really understand why you do. Please try to consider this:

I find my blog a positive effort because of the reasons I've already listed. It is a cheap form of therapy. It is helpful to others going through the same thing (and, I've been told, entertaining to some nevermos). And it serves as a warning and a source for truth.I think you can understand that even if you don't agree with it.

I do appreciate that you said "I'm not gonna say 'I'll pray for you.'" It was one of the reasons I wanted to take the time to give you a decent reply. I think most atheists find statements like "I'll pray for you" annoying at best. I wish you well in your positive pursuits also, though I'm sure we disagree on what those might be. And I hope that, if nothing else, after reading my response you will take with you a better understanding of exmos and be able to spread that understanding (and maybe even some compassion) to your peers in the church. So many view us as nothing but bitter, evil people who have "sinned against the light." Maybe you can challenge that stereotype and remind them that, if they actually take the time to talk with us (as you have), they might find that we're much more complex than that.

Take care.

*You make an ass out of “u” and “mumption?” ;)

The Book of Mormon

I recently was left this anonymous comment:

I guess I can see where you are coming from on somethings.. but i believe the book of mormon too much to just leave it in the dust. you didn't mention anything bout that. [sic]

The Book of Mormon? You mean the book in which:

• God tells Nephi to murder a passed out drunk man rather than just steal his (not covered in blood and gore) clothes.
• One of the heroes executes prisoners of war and political enemies.
• God uses dark skin as a curse.
• God slaughters a large number of people who don't believe in him (but he loves us all so much).
• The culture contains plants, animals, and man made goods that couldn't have been there?
• There are huge urban centers for which no credible evidence has ever been found.
• Jesus gives a sermon that word for word matches the Bible which Joseph Smith later said was an incorrect translation.
  
• The geography described is a rip-off of the local geography of Smith's home.
• The claim is made that Israelites are primary ancestors of Native Americans (though I hear they're editing that little blunder out these days) even though DNA evidence absolutely proves otherwise.
• There is population growth at a rate that shouldn't be possible.
• Witnesses claim to have seen the book even though other witnesses said Smith was a

  "ne'er-do-well knock-about who picked up money by convincing gullible farmers that he could find buried treasure on their lands through his magical powers and his "peep stone" (the same stone with which he claimed to have translated the sacred golden plates)."(http://packham.n4m.org/witness.htm)

• There are countless other problems. See: http://mormonthink.com/bomweb.htm (Mormon run site) for more info on much of what I've listed as well as additional problems.

You mean that Book of Mormon?

Yeah.

Not buying it.

Besides, I wholeheartedly believe the Church is not true, and that Joseph Smith was a lecherous con man. It's not hard to make the jump to not believing in the Book of Mormon. But, if it appeases the believers out there any better than talking about the facts I can also tell you this: I prayed about the truth of the church (and that includes the Book of Mormon). And the answer I got (silence) to me means either it isn't true or that God is a kind of an ass hole for not telling me even though I sincerely asked, praying with real intent as per the "Book of Mormon promise."

"Ah! But you got an answer at one time telling you that it is true" say the critics.

And Pentecostals speak in tongues, jihadhists are getting a bunch of virgins in heaven, and God told this guy to told to cut off somebody's head. Isn't it awfully arrogant for me to think the rest of the world is deluding themselves but not me?

And so, for humor's sake, I leave you with this quote from Mark Twain:

"The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so "slow," so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print. If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle--keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate. If he, according to tradition, merely translated it from certain ancient and mysteriously-engraved plates of copper, which he declares he found under a stone, in an out-of-the-way locality, the work of translating was equally a miracle, for the same reason." http://truthandgrace.com/twainbom.htm

Talking to TBMs 2

This is an old conversation, but my last post reminded me of it and I wanted to share.


And it ended there.